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	<title>Comments on: Two roads diverge: two paths to thinking about social change</title>
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	<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/</link>
	<description>By Akhila K.</description>
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		<title>By: Akhila </title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2693</link>
		<dc:creator>Akhila </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 00:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2693</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the long and helpful comment! I really appreciate it, and I learned a lot. I know quite a bit about the &quot;social&quot; aspect of microfinance and how that is a large part of the movement&#039;s success. However, I don&#039;t have too much knowledge about some of these other movements and viewpoints you are mentioning here. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;True that we haven&#039;t talked about the environmental impact of the 1 million shirts debate. I wonder why it didn&#039;t come up. But ultimately, I don&#039;t really see how this is a different debate or viewpoint than the aid v. trade ideologies. I suppose that I don&#039;t completely understand your point yet. Are you saying that we should look at the environmental impact of any project and then make a decision about its value/effectiveness based on that? &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I haven&#039;t heard of Generation Debt either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the long and helpful comment! I really appreciate it, and I learned a lot. I know quite a bit about the &#8220;social&#8221; aspect of microfinance and how that is a large part of the movement&#39;s success. However, I don&#39;t have too much knowledge about some of these other movements and viewpoints you are mentioning here. </p>
<p>True that we haven&#39;t talked about the environmental impact of the 1 million shirts debate. I wonder why it didn&#39;t come up. But ultimately, I don&#39;t really see how this is a different debate or viewpoint than the aid v. trade ideologies. I suppose that I don&#39;t completely understand your point yet. Are you saying that we should look at the environmental impact of any project and then make a decision about its value/effectiveness based on that? </p>
<p>I haven&#39;t heard of Generation Debt either.</p>
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		<title>By: smithmillcreek</title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2688</link>
		<dc:creator>smithmillcreek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 04:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2688</guid>
		<description>I always find it helpful to ask where ideas come from. I&#039;ll ask the person who wrote the paper if she&#039;s willing to email it to you (Haven&#039;t read it yet-- just got this from a quick skim).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;One of the key early people in green economics is Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen*, who not only helped found the field, but was Mohammed Yunus professor in Tennessee:   &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-institutions_government/yunus_4030.jsp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-inst...&lt;/a&gt; And remember-- Grameen didn&#039;t start out dealing with Individuals-- they only lent to a group of, say, five women. Did you know that? It is key to the concept. &lt;br&gt;social microcredit is social, not individual.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Other key founders include Herman Daly*, &amp; Howard Odum. Professional societies devoted to this include the Intl and US societies for ecological economics. Good twitter tags are #degrowth &amp; #postgrowth. Elinor Ostrom is friendly to this line of thinking.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;A key problem here is that people compartmentalize into siloes-- many of the folks who talked about the coming sub-prime crisis ignored peak oil; many peak oil folks initially didn&#039;t pay attention to the subprime crisis. Helpful here is the art of systems thinking. A leading systems thinker is the late Donella Meadows, who helped write the Club of Rome report. Another is Thomas Homer-Dixon, a political scientist who started out thinking about human rights in Africa &amp; now spends a lot of time thinking about complexity, climate, peak oil &amp; financial collapse.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I didn&#039;t see ecological footprint, eco-collapse, climate/peak oil emerge anywhere in the #1millionshirts  discussion-- many of the posters who gave themselves credit for thinking sooo much more intelligently than Jason S were perhaps more narrow in their thinking than they gave themselves credit for. None mentioned Annie Leonard&#039;s Story of Stuff, for instance&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.storyofstuff.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.storyofstuff.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If we take the individual, narrow-minded route, your generation is toast.&lt;br&gt;Have you heard of Anya Kamenetz Generation Debt?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always find it helpful to ask where ideas come from. I&#39;ll ask the person who wrote the paper if she&#39;s willing to email it to you (Haven&#39;t read it yet&#8211; just got this from a quick skim).</p>
<p>One of the key early people in green economics is Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen*, who not only helped found the field, but was Mohammed Yunus professor in Tennessee:   <a href="http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-institutions_government/yunus_4030.jsp" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-inst" rel="nofollow">http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-inst</a>&#8230; And remember&#8211; Grameen didn&#39;t start out dealing with Individuals&#8211; they only lent to a group of, say, five women. Did you know that? It is key to the concept. <br />social microcredit is social, not individual.</p>
<p>Other key founders include Herman Daly*, &#038; Howard Odum. Professional societies devoted to this include the Intl and US societies for ecological economics. Good twitter tags are #degrowth &#038; #postgrowth. Elinor Ostrom is friendly to this line of thinking.</p>
<p>A key problem here is that people compartmentalize into siloes&#8211; many of the folks who talked about the coming sub-prime crisis ignored peak oil; many peak oil folks initially didn&#39;t pay attention to the subprime crisis. Helpful here is the art of systems thinking. A leading systems thinker is the late Donella Meadows, who helped write the Club of Rome report. Another is Thomas Homer-Dixon, a political scientist who started out thinking about human rights in Africa &#038; now spends a lot of time thinking about complexity, climate, peak oil &#038; financial collapse.</p>
<p>I didn&#39;t see ecological footprint, eco-collapse, climate/peak oil emerge anywhere in the #1millionshirts  discussion&#8211; many of the posters who gave themselves credit for thinking sooo much more intelligently than Jason S were perhaps more narrow in their thinking than they gave themselves credit for. None mentioned Annie Leonard&#39;s Story of Stuff, for instance<br /><a href="http://www.storyofstuff.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.storyofstuff.com</a></p>
<p>If we take the individual, narrow-minded route, your generation is toast.<br />Have you heard of Anya Kamenetz Generation Debt?</p>
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		<title>By: Akhila </title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2689</link>
		<dc:creator>Akhila </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 02:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2689</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment! This sounds intriguing, but I&#039;m not sure I&#039;ve heard of it. I don&#039;t think I completely understand this approach; do you have any articles or readings that talk about the approach? Or would you care to explain this further? Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment! This sounds intriguing, but I&#39;m not sure I&#39;ve heard of it. I don&#39;t think I completely understand this approach; do you have any articles or readings that talk about the approach? Or would you care to explain this further? Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: smithmillcreek</title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2687</link>
		<dc:creator>smithmillcreek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jun 2010 00:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2687</guid>
		<description>I saw an excellent chart recently which laid out these two approaches, and then a third one; much more ecological in focus; which is different than the traditional capitalist or welfare models. &lt;br&gt;EF Schumacher, the Greens, permaculture and the Transition Town/peak oil movements fall much more into this model-- we must cooperate &amp; think globally, or we&#039;re in big trouble. This mindset grew tremendously from 1967- 1977, and then faded away; &amp; is now on the rebound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw an excellent chart recently which laid out these two approaches, and then a third one; much more ecological in focus; which is different than the traditional capitalist or welfare models. <br />EF Schumacher, the Greens, permaculture and the Transition Town/peak oil movements fall much more into this model&#8211; we must cooperate &#038; think globally, or we&#39;re in big trouble. This mindset grew tremendously from 1967- 1977, and then faded away; &#038; is now on the rebound.</p>
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		<title>By: Akhila </title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2662</link>
		<dc:creator>Akhila </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 00:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2662</guid>
		<description>I too haven&#039;t decided which &quot;path&quot; to take, but I do think we need people working on both areas. I don&#039;t think there is any SINGLE approach to social change that works, but I think it&#039;s an ongoing effort to solve some of our world&#039;s most critical problems. I think both types of approaches could go wrong if they are not implemented properly. But at the same time, both could prove to be very successful, if they are carried out in the right ways. Simple redistribution of wealth is not going to solve everything. But capitalism won&#039;t solve everything either. The only thing I&#039;d be worried about regarding the first route is that we want to make sure that our own motives for entering social change are not selfish...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too haven&#39;t decided which &#8220;path&#8221; to take, but I do think we need people working on both areas. I don&#39;t think there is any SINGLE approach to social change that works, but I think it&#39;s an ongoing effort to solve some of our world&#39;s most critical problems. I think both types of approaches could go wrong if they are not implemented properly. But at the same time, both could prove to be very successful, if they are carried out in the right ways. Simple redistribution of wealth is not going to solve everything. But capitalism won&#39;t solve everything either. The only thing I&#39;d be worried about regarding the first route is that we want to make sure that our own motives for entering social change are not selfish&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Akhila </title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2661</link>
		<dc:creator>Akhila </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 00:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2661</guid>
		<description>I agree - there are so many organizations out there trying to do both, and are succeeding at it too. I like your examples, and other organizations are providing things like microfinance along with free health services, for instance. I think we need a bit of both -- we need to provide certain services free, but also use capitalism as a tool to achieve economic growth and to empower people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree &#8211; there are so many organizations out there trying to do both, and are succeeding at it too. I like your examples, and other organizations are providing things like microfinance along with free health services, for instance. I think we need a bit of both &#8212; we need to provide certain services free, but also use capitalism as a tool to achieve economic growth and to empower people.</p>
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		<title>By: aisha speaks</title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2660</link>
		<dc:creator>aisha speaks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 15:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2660</guid>
		<description>the two philosophies you pointed out are truly polarized (that&#039;s the point, I guess, lol). I&#039;d say there has been a surge in groups seeking to not only provide individual services, but to also implement some sort of change in global practices regarding business AND aid. (See Social Venture Network, Appropedia, etc...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the two philosophies you pointed out are truly polarized (that&#39;s the point, I guess, lol). I&#39;d say there has been a surge in groups seeking to not only provide individual services, but to also implement some sort of change in global practices regarding business AND aid. (See Social Venture Network, Appropedia, etc&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Mlle Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2659</link>
		<dc:creator>Mlle Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 May 2010 14:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2659</guid>
		<description>The question you pose is an interesting one because so often I feel as though I need to decide the answer myself. It plays heavily on my mind especially when I&#039;m thinking about what i want to do/be &quot;when I grow up.&quot; However, I don&#039;t think that one is better than the other. I believe that they both play an important role in affecting change just as both the goverment as well as grassroots organizations affect change from different &quot;fronts.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Personally, I still haven&#039;t quite decided which path I want to take myself since they both appeal to me for various reasons. Thanks for this post, as it puts a lot of my thoughts into perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question you pose is an interesting one because so often I feel as though I need to decide the answer myself. It plays heavily on my mind especially when I&#39;m thinking about what i want to do/be &#8220;when I grow up.&#8221; However, I don&#39;t think that one is better than the other. I believe that they both play an important role in affecting change just as both the goverment as well as grassroots organizations affect change from different &#8220;fronts.&#8221;</p>
<p>Personally, I still haven&#39;t quite decided which path I want to take myself since they both appeal to me for various reasons. Thanks for this post, as it puts a lot of my thoughts into perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Akhila </title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2657</link>
		<dc:creator>Akhila </dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 May 2010 15:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2657</guid>
		<description>I think the ultimate goal I&#039;m referring to here is social change and development -- and ultimately reducing or even eradicating poverty &amp; inequality. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I understand what you are saying, but I wonder if the distinction is not as clear as you make it seem. It&#039;s true that the first approach might cause people to emphasize personal gain, but what if it does result in less inequality? And is that approach ultimately more sensible? Because, what if more good can be done by exploiting people&#039;s interests in personal gain than from trying to make them change into believing in the redistribution of wealth? If you take the &quot;social justice&quot; approach to it&#039;s ultimate end, wouldn&#039;t it result in complete redistribution of wealth, leading to the wealthy revolting as a result?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Perhaps I&#039;m taking this to an extreme, but I wonder if it is too much to believe that the rich around the world will consent to redistributing their wealth to the oppressed and poor. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Certainly if the second approach works out,  I do agree that it would lead to a kinder world of greater equality. However, I just wonder if it is feasible in reality.  Or maybe I&#039;m just cynical about humanity!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the ultimate goal I&#39;m referring to here is social change and development &#8212; and ultimately reducing or even eradicating poverty &#038; inequality. </p>
<p>I understand what you are saying, but I wonder if the distinction is not as clear as you make it seem. It&#39;s true that the first approach might cause people to emphasize personal gain, but what if it does result in less inequality? And is that approach ultimately more sensible? Because, what if more good can be done by exploiting people&#39;s interests in personal gain than from trying to make them change into believing in the redistribution of wealth? If you take the &#8220;social justice&#8221; approach to it&#39;s ultimate end, wouldn&#39;t it result in complete redistribution of wealth, leading to the wealthy revolting as a result?</p>
<p>Perhaps I&#39;m taking this to an extreme, but I wonder if it is too much to believe that the rich around the world will consent to redistributing their wealth to the oppressed and poor. </p>
<p>Certainly if the second approach works out,  I do agree that it would lead to a kinder world of greater equality. However, I just wonder if it is feasible in reality.  Or maybe I&#39;m just cynical about humanity!</p>
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		<title>By: Barak</title>
		<link>http://akhilak.com/blog/2010/05/06/two-roads-diverge-two-paths-to-thinking-about-social-change/#comment-2653</link>
		<dc:creator>Barak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 06:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://akhilak.com/blog/?p=809#comment-2653</guid>
		<description>A really good observation. Though the answer to your ultimate question depends on what the ultimate goal is.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So I&#039;m curious, what is the goal - ultimately?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I believe your two alternatives lead to fundamentally different places. One leads to a world much like modern society where personal gain is a major priority for individuals - though perhaps with less inequality. It may be a bold claim to make, but I feel the modern social climate was created and is perpetuated by selfish tendencies. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The other alternative leads to another - kinder - world of homogenized justice and a reduced level of global suffering. And I feel this should be the main aim for anyone interested in social change and development. Selflessness is more than a cultivator for equality. It possesses the power of profound personal expansion. It precludes abhorrent personal loss or suffering. It is the first step to attaining what Prince Gautama Siddhartha called enlightenment. For a better future and for a better humanity, this is the alternative that will work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A really good observation. Though the answer to your ultimate question depends on what the ultimate goal is.</p>
<p>So I&#39;m curious, what is the goal &#8211; ultimately?</p>
<p>I believe your two alternatives lead to fundamentally different places. One leads to a world much like modern society where personal gain is a major priority for individuals &#8211; though perhaps with less inequality. It may be a bold claim to make, but I feel the modern social climate was created and is perpetuated by selfish tendencies. </p>
<p>The other alternative leads to another &#8211; kinder &#8211; world of homogenized justice and a reduced level of global suffering. And I feel this should be the main aim for anyone interested in social change and development. Selflessness is more than a cultivator for equality. It possesses the power of profound personal expansion. It precludes abhorrent personal loss or suffering. It is the first step to attaining what Prince Gautama Siddhartha called enlightenment. For a better future and for a better humanity, this is the alternative that will work.</p>
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